Calvinism - My Opinion
Calvinism is sweeping the globe at a rapid pace. While it’s definitely not a fresh, new issue, it seems to have been given a resurrection within the last ten years. From the formal church to the casual, contemporary church, Calvinism is spreading like wildfire. I am well aware that the Bible SEEMS to teach the doctrine of Calvinism as well as the doctrine of “whosoever will.” I will not even pretend that I can explain those passages. For sake of space, I won’t even quote the verses. I do, however, want to give you a glimpse into my mind and my thoughts on Calvinism.
1. We cannot explain, describe, nor understand God. The day that I realized that I could not figure God out was the day I became free to live a life of spiritual victory. A Calvinist attempts to understand God’s way of thinking. His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. I cannot begin to explain how a holy God could send His Son to die for those who were born in sin. I cannot begin to tell you how God could then send people to a place called Hell. I can’t explain Him; I can’t understand Him; but I love Him so much that I trust Him (Proverbs 3:5-6).
2. Since we cannot understand God, we cannot view things from God’s perspective. God is omniscient. I think most would agree. Included in His “all-knowing” would be the fact that God knew, before I was born, whether or not I would accept His Son as my Savior. God knows EVERYTHING. From the beginning of the beginning until the end of the end, He has known and always will know (Psalm 90:2). God knows who will reject Jesus, yet we are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. God knows which outfit I will choose to wear tomorrow, yet I have the free will to choose whichever outfit I would like.
We cannot begin to try to view the salvation of souls through the eyes of Jehovah God. We must keep our human perspective of “Tell them all. Some will heed; some will reject. God knew who would heed and who would reject, and He used me as His tool to present Jesus to all.”
3. The only thing more powerful than the will of God is the will of man. Stay with me on this one. I am IN NO WAY suggesting that God is not all-powerful. I am in no way humanizing God. I hate when pastors do that…even as an illustration. So…here goes… God gave human beings a free will….the ability to choose. Humans are not robots. We all have the ability to make decisions that will alter the course of our lives. God gave us that ability. God ultimately gave us the ability to say “No” to Jesus. Since Scripture clearly tells us that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance; we know what the “will of God” is. It is for “all to come to repentance.” If God had His way, we would ALL be saved. However, God has given us the ability to choose. The will of the unsaved trumps the will of God. That is not an easy sentence to type. But the truth remains, God WANTED the unsaved to be saved (His will), but the unsaved CHOSE to reject Jesus (their will). You tell me which one is more powerful.
Staying on this topic, but moving in a slightly different direction - Aren’t you glad God did not FORCE us to love Him? What good is there in forced love? If I (as a parent) have to MAKE my daughter love me, that’s pretty lame. It is the ultimate fulfillment to have my one year old ON HER OWN give her daddy a kiss. That’s a perfect picture of God. Had he FORCED us to choose Jesus, what pleasure is there in that? Instead, He gave us the freedom to choose. Our freedom to choose is the most powerful ability we possess. Me must choose wisely…of course for salvation, but also in the Christian life.
Calvinist, unfortunately for you, in order to be consistent; you must believe in limited atonement. I, on the other hand, choose to believe the most popular verse in history - “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” My Jesus died for EVERYONE. You and I have to choose to accept or reject. What we can’t understand is that God already knows which we will choose.
**Disclaimer**This is not an exhaustive essay. There are holes that could be filled in if this were a book. This has been a brief essay spear-headed by a sermon I recently heard by a local pastor.
Test reply.
You might want to work on your consistency of thought. How can God be all-powerful and yet the “will of the unsaved” is greater than his. According to your theory, man is sovereign not God. Maybe a better understanding of the Calvinistic position would be helpful.
John 3:16 is used as a proof text for unlimited atonement when in its essence the verse limits salvation to whosoever BELIEVES.
My “theory” of the will of man being the final say is due to the fact that God is not willing that ANY should perish….yet thousands do every day. God (being still all-powerful) lets the human being choose whether to accept or reject. Do you, Mike, believe in irresistible grace? Do you believe when God calls, that man has no choice? If you don’t believe that, then you believe that the will of man is the final say. You just wouldn’t probably word it that way.
According to your view of John 3:16, Christ only died for those that would believe? So Jesus didn’t come unto his own, and his own received him not? Hmm…
Let’s use the verse you are grounding your thoughts on. 2 Peter 3:9. I know you want to be honest with the text. And to be honest with the text we have to determine several things. Two key things we must determine is who was Peter speaking to and what was he saying to them.
A careful look at the context here indicates that he is speaking to born-again Christians. In verse 8 he calls them “beloved.” And in chapter 1 he describes them “that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” And in the verse that we are dealing with, what he is saying is addressed to us-ward. So it is obvious that Peter is speaking to Christians about the promise of the second coming.
Now what is he saying. We must look to the Greek here. Now I am sure you will agree that the word that is translated “some” in the phrase “as some men count slackness” means certain ones in the Greek. There were certain men or some men who were accusing God of being slack in delivering on his promise to his people.
Now as we work our way down this verse we come to the part “not willing that any should perish.” Are you aware that the word translated “any” is the same word translated “some” just a few words back? And the meaning is certain ones or some.
And “all” does not always mean all exclusively, there are times it means all of a certain group.
We could also say that God has two wills. Theologians down through the years have argued this using different terms for the two wills. One is a will that he states what he desires. Such as all men to repent, no man to murder, no one to commit adultery and so on. And then he has a will of decree in which he decrees what will take place. Just because God might desire all men to be saved does not necessarily mean he has decreed all men to be saved and it sure does not mean that man is the deciding factor.
As to your argument over John 3:16, its just not an atonement verse. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I was just trying to get you to see that the whosoever is limited to those who believe. The stress is on those who believe in Him will not perish.
I totally agree that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I believe that all that call on his name in true repentance, he will in no wise cast out. I believe that whosoever will believe on HIm shall not perish.
I believe man must willingly come to Christ for salvation but I also believe that God makes us willing in the day of his power.
The Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility of man are both true and must be held in tension,
Then there was silence. Good point Mike.
Dave, classy.
Mike, II Peter 3:9 is not the only verse I base my belief of “a Jesus who died for all” on. John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, Romans 10:13, etc….
So, if I understand your point correctly, Jesus only died for those who would believe? So Jesus died for the thief that received Him on the cross, but not for the other thief?
Also, once again, do you believe in irresistible grace? Do you believe if God draws a sinner to Him, that sinner does not have a choice…either he WILL be saved b/c he was predestined, or he will not be saved no matter what.
Ok we will ignore the discussion of 2 Peter 3:9, you brought that particular verse to the table and now because it is troublesome for your position, you simply move on to other verses. I understand.
Let’s look at the other verses your “belief” is based on.
John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 10:9-10, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I am a bit confused here. You state that these verses, along with 2 Peter 3:8, are what you base your belief of “a Jesus who died for all.”
But I don’t see where these verses deal with the death of Christ. It is sorta like our conversation here, it began about the will of God and then you moved to the subject of the atonement. And instead of dealing with the verse you supplied as a reason you hold to God’s will being trumped by Man’s will, you simply quote more verses that have nothing to do with neither his will or his atonement.
Finally, you seem a little anxious that I answer your question about irresistible grace and the sinner’s choice. I know that your argument will be that there will be men who want to choose Christ to be their Savior and because they were not elect, can’t. But the simple truth is this, those whom God draws, come to him and choose Him. And those who are not drawn, DON’T come, and they don’t choose Him. John 6:44 says, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Notice the connections, they come if the Father draws them and the ones that come will be raised up in victory at the last day.
No one is saved because they are predestined. Men are saved by faith placed in the finished work of Jesus Christ. We are given the righteousness of His perfect life and he takes our sins and the wrath that is associated with them and nails them to the cross.
I think we can safely say that Mike pretty much eliminated II Peter 3:9, the Romans road, etc. as your proof texts as arguments against a particular atonement. Here is something else to think about as it pertains to a particular atonement:
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”
Jesus is very specific about who He is laying His life down for. THE SHEEP!
John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Again Jesus declares the ones for whom He came to die.
John 10:16 “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”
Jesus is here telling us that He has sheep that are not of the Jewish fold and that He must bring them together as one and in order to do this He must die for them as well.
And now to illustrate that Jesus Himself declared His atonement to be specific to His sheep we will look at a confrontation between Jesus and the Jews a few verses later:
In 10:22-39 John records a confrontation with the Jews in which Jesus says to them:
John 10:22-25 “And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.”
You will notice that Jesus said “you do not believe BECAUSE you are not part of my flock.” He did not say that they were not part of His flock because they did not believe. We are not sheep because of our belief, but we believe because we are His sheep. If you follow the logic of this passage Jesus is stating that He did not come to die for those Jews who came to Him in v. 24. Jesus made it plain that He came to die for His sheep, His flock, while at the same time excluding these particular Jews from membership of that flock.
Now for a little more clarity let us compare Scripture with Scripture.
In Hebrews 7:25 we are told: “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”
Compare this wonderful truth with the prayer of Jesus found in John 17. In particular these verses:
John 17:1-2 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”
John 17:9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.”
John 17:20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”
Jesus is very specific in regards to who He came to die for and for whom He makes intercession. Jesus declares His prayers to be for those who WILL believe not for those who might. You see, Jesus is not in Heaven hoping His sheep make it He has declared it to be so.
Now I will close this post with a quote from a sermon by John Piper on I John 2:2 and it’s relation to the principle of limited atonement.
John Piper says of I John 2:2:
“And he is not the propitiation for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world.”
“John does not mean that all God’s wrath against the sins of every person in the world has been propitiated, because then every person in the world would be saved. “He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (John 3:36). The wrath of God is propitiated only for those who obey the Son of God. (Cf. Romans 3:25.)
What John means can best be seen when we compare the closest parallel to this verse in his writings, namely, John 11:52. Caiaphas predicts the death of Jesus like this: “He prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.” Or as Jesus says in John 10:15–16, “I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold; I must bring them also.”
In other words there are children of God, or sheep, scattered through the whole world. As John says in Revelation 5:9, Christ was slain and by his blood didst ransom men for God from every tongue and tribe and people and nation.” He did not ransom everybody. He gave his life a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). He did not propitiate the wrath of God against everybody. But he laid down his life for the sheep. They are scattered throughout the world in every tongue and tribe and people and nation.”
Mike, John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 have EVERYTHING to do with Jesus dying on the cross. What does “whosoever believeth” mean? The Jesus that God raised from the dead died on the cross. Not sure why these verses don’t deal with the cross.
Romans 10:10 states, “for with the heart MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.” So man is the party that believes.
Jesus states, “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” He will draw all, but not all will come.
Your comment states: “Finally, you seem a little anxious that I answer your question about irresistible grace and the sinner’s choice. I know that your argument will be that there will be men who want to choose Christ to be their Savior and because they were not elect, can’t. But the simple truth is this, those whom God draws, come to him and choose Him. And those who are not drawn, DON’T come, and they don’t choose Him.”
Let me get this straight…God (of course) chose you, but you believe that God may not choose your son or daughter? Do you teach your children that they may not be one of the “sheep” or the “elect”? Do they know, according to your belief, that God very well may have damned them to hell before they were even born?
Chris, I love how you call it a “particular” atonement….sounds so much better than what you really believe…a “limited” atonement.
Nothing in John 17 speaks of who Jesus died for. His death is not even hinted at. Verse 6, in my opinion, is speaking of ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH. When the “world” is referred to, it is meaning the wickedness or sinfulness many times called the “world.”
I agree with Piper’s thoughts on I John 2:2. God’s wrath is satisfied only for those who believe; however, Christ died for ALL. Only those that accept Him enjoy the benefits.
Your comments >>Let me get this straight…God (of course) chose you, but you believe that God may not choose your son or daughter? Do you teach your children that they may not be one of the “sheep” or the “elect”? Do they know, according to your belief, that God very well may have damned them to hell before they were even born?
Do you teach your kids that God knows all things? Do you teach them that knowing multitudes will reject Jesus, and die in their sins, and be cast into hell, God allows them to be born anyway? You have some explaining to do…… You see that road goes both ways.
Romans 8:28
You said >> Nothing in John 17 speaks of who Jesus died for. His death is not even hinted at. Verse 6, in my opinion, is speaking of ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH. When the “world” is referred to, it is meaning the wickedness or sinfulness many times called the “world.”
My response >> It may be your opinion but it is not what verse 6 says. Jesus plainly thanks the Father for those given to Him OUT of the world. Here it is again: John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”
In order for v.6 to mean what in your “opinion” it means, then all the people of the world would have to have kept God’s Word. You don’t really believe that do you?
As for John 17 having nothing to do with who Jesus died for I’ll only encourage you to look a little closer at that passage as it is referred to as His High Priestly prayer and was issued on the eve of His passion.
You said >> I agree with Piper’s thoughts on I John 2:2. God’s wrath is satisfied only for those who believe; however, Christ died for ALL. Only those that accept Him enjoy the benefits.
My response >> No Christ died for His sheep per John 10, and your response indicates that you disagree with John Piper’s thoughts.
I John 2:2 “And he is not the propitiation for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world.”
If Jesus satisfied God’s requirements for everyone in the world in relation to their sins why do people still go to hell? If the Father’s wrath has been satisfied in Christ why is He still pouring it out on unbelievers? The fact that He is would seem to indicate that it has not been satisfied. Just to cover this base - one of my sins was that of unbelief, and this verse indicates that that sin is covered by Christ’s sacrifice as well. Since there is no distinction made between “our sins” and the sins of the whole world” the only logical conclusion based on your interpretation of Scripture is that the sin of unbelief was satisfied as well. Only God is still casting people into hell because they don’t believe. Either John was confused or you’re confused.
And as an aside let me define particular for you: “denotes a proposition in which something is asserted of some but not all and it is contrasted with universal.”
Now allow me to define limited for you: “to set or serve as a limit to”
They mean the same thing. BTW I would charge that you limit the atonement as well. You limit it’s power (your assertion that man’s will trumps God’s being my basis for reaching this conclusion) while Calvinism simply points out the limit of the scope of the atonement. I believe the atonement has the power to save all but is effectual only in those who believe. In other words I believe everyone for whom the blood was shed will be saved. You believe the atonement only created the possibility of redemption and most for whom Jesus died will end up in hell. I am more comfortable with a belief system limiting the scope of the atonement rather than subscribing to a belief system that limits its power.
BTW I noticed you didn’t touch John 10. Set this Calvinist straight on just what John is saying in that chapter. You can reference my position on this chapter in my earlier post to you.
Romans 8:28
Josh,
Apparently you must think that God’s choice (if he has one) was a choice among good, God-fearing and Christ honoring people. When the truth is that God does not have to damn anyone, they are damned in themselves. We are born with a sin nature that will manifest itself in sinful desires and actions. Paul said “there is none good” and “none seek him” and “we’ve all gone out of the way.” And he said “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Everyone is deserving of death and hell and everyone will go to hell if God did not choose some to show his mercy toward. God did boast that “he would show mercy to whom he would show mercy.”
The problem here is that you are dishonest with the text. You look at the text subjectively instead of objectively. You look at two texts that appear to be in contradiction with one another and you choose one and ignore the other instead of looking at how these two verses must complement each other. How do you reconcile two verses where one says Christ died for all and another says that Christ died for many? You see ultimately, the text becomes a problem for you to explain so you just keep quoting verses. You might want to sit down with Strong’s Concordance and actually study the texts.
You keep quoting verses that deal with man believing and I have already told you that I believe man must believe, he must repent of his sins and he must put faith in Christ. What more do I need to say about that then what I have already said. But what you must answer is why did you believe and another doesn’t? Maybe you were smarter or maybe more sensitive or maybe more willing that the other. Then you have right to boast in God’s presence. But me, I have no room for boasting for it was my Savior from beginning to end that accomplished my salvation and I will have all eternity to praise him for his glorious work.
If we are not going to examine the texts and strive to find their meaning then what is there to discuss. This is not about your opinion or mine but what the Word says.
Chris brought several verses to light and you just ignore them or you make some remark about the people of all the world being sinfulness or wickedness. You totally ignore that God gave Christ a people OUT of the world. Who did God give to Christ? And then you ignore the the other 10 passages he offered,
You should refrain from tackling issues that he apparently have not completely thought out or worked out in Scripture. It is dangerous to parrot others and not come to your own conclusions after careful and honest dealings with the word.
I’ll finish my portion of the “debate” like this: I know that when I finally gave in to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and made sure of my home in Heaven, the Holy Spirit was HEAVILY convicting me. I also know that the Holy Spirit had been heavily convicting me for several years throughout my teen life. I remember the sleepless nights and the frightening days, as I prayed that the rapture would not take place.
I remember as I sat in the back row of a chapel service in 2001, the Holy Spirit (once again) bringing that convicting power on me. It was that same convicting power that had been brought for the previous 8 years or so. It’s just that this time, I finally broke free and gave into the Holy Spirit. I was saved and have never had doubts since.
I must be honest with you, though. I could have NOT chosen to break free and give in that day. Salvation was nothing the Holy Spirit FORCED me into. It was heavily influenced by Him, but ultimately, I was tired of playing games with my eternity. That day began my true Christian life with Christ as my everything…but I still, to this day, have the power to choose right and wrong. The power of choice that God gives us is the true litmus test of our belief…both for salvation and for our works after salvation.
A forced love or acceptance is not a true love or acceptance…any way you slice it.
So this all comes down to your misunderstanding of irresistible grace? I sure hope that in the future you will take the time to actually make an honest attempt at understanding what it is you’re trying to disprove. I would encourage you to read this article by John MacArthur as he deals with the effectual call (irresistible grace) of God to the sinner:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-296.htm
If the link doesn’t work just copy and paste it in your address bar.
Josh, it is no accident that you posted your opinion on Calvinism, and although ripe with misunderstanding and error as to what Calvinism is (not to mention the borderline heresy in stating that the only thing more powerful than God’s will is man’s will), it has hopefully opened the door for further study on your part.
Romans 8:28
I was sent this article by someone who was interested in the debate. I read the article and then the comments of the two sides. I was just wondering if anyone else noticed the condescending tone of the two Calvinists. The language they used and the argument style was incredibly rude, as they bashed on the author. I do not agree entirely with his paper, however, I will not berate him in my disagreement. That would be rude and unChristlike. Instead of answers his responses and questions you insulted him and debased him. This is not debate. In fact it reminds me of what liberal media does when opposing views are suggested. It is using the worlds methods instead of Christ’s. I wish I would not see this from people who call themselves Christians.